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Questions from August 2005 - Part III
Part III of August Questions..
Subject: Let's Confess It
Mr. McLaren,
Is there music to go along with the lyrics on your website? If so, where can I find the song?
Thanks for your honesty, and for writing a song we all need to sing. Perhaps we can find
unity and clarity in a song -also for some singing words is easier than speaking them. Anyhow, if it's out
there, can you point the way?
A: Not yet – I hope we can get it recorded at some point.
Subject: Thanks For Your Books!
Brian
I am an Anglican priest in Canada (Hamilton area) and am on disabilty ?leave with MS. As such I have almost no public voice in my diocese. I ?am now ploughing through your books (I have read the "New Kind of ?Christian Trilogy twice and will read it three times to glean the wisdom ?in all three books). I am presently reading your book "A Generous ?Orthodoxy" and find it (so far) wonderful. I am trying to find a way ?for all my collegues in ministry to read your books. You have I ?believed "wandered into" a reponse for the rifts and tears in ?Christianity today.
As I sometimes need to use a wheelchair (especially to go out on my ?own) I cannot get into many churches. I wish there was an emergent ?group/conversation in my area. Your writings scream to be heard. I am ?trying to get them into my past seminary.
God bless! I look forward to the new book and will continue to read ?your oyher books. Your friend in Jesus' ministry.
A: Thanks. Perhaps I can meet you when I’m in Toronto in April. As you know from the book, I feel a great affinity for all in the Anglican tribe. May God give you strength as you live with MS.
Subject: Question for Brian: Doug Coe, the Cedars and the National Prayer Breakfast
Hey Brian,
My name is x -- I am a recent graduate from x ?University in St. Paul, Minnesota with degrees in Political Science and ?Philosophy.
You might find my name somewhat familiar from an article I had published in ?Sojourners earlier this year during the raw-as-war heat of the 2004 ?Presidential Election battle ('Sorry, Wrong School: Renewal and Reconciliation ?at a Baptist University' -- link posted below). ?http://www.sojo.net/index.cfm?action=news.display_archives&mode=current_opinion&article=CO_041020_latondresse
We also chatted briefly during one of your stops in the Twin Cities about how ?oatmealy nothingness of Jean Paul Sartre's 'Nausea', or a Nietzschean ?'will-to-power' could stand as plausible counter-movements out of cynicism (one ?of your 4-stages of faith development) but away from humility/simplicity. In ?other words, that cynicism is often the catalyst that leads a person to choose ?meaninglessness or domination as alternatives to humility or simplicity. I ?know you basically run around all over the face of the planet from speaking ?engagement to speaking engagement, so the likelihood of you remembering my face ?or name is super slim -- but worth a shot anyways. At any rate, I would love ?to continue th conversation
All that being said, let me begin (though by now I am hardly at the beginning of ?this e-mail) by saying that your books have been a tremendous encouragement to ?me over the past several years. As a young evangelical who grew up as a ?missionary kid in Siberia (yeah, Siberia ;-)) I entered college and immediately ?began to struggle with my religious upbringing and the Christian expression of ?so many around me that seemed so, well, uncharitable and oversimplified (or in ?many cases -- too complex). Your books represented a spirit-level confirmation ?that I was not simply some strange alien-breed of heretic, but maybe (just ?MAYBE) was on to something when I saw more evidence of the Kingdom of God at ?work in an agnostic Derrida than in the enclave of suburban EVERYTHING I was ?living in otherwise known as x University. So from the bottom of my heart ?-- THANK YOU!
Quick Question: When I spoke with you at x last fall you had mentioned that ?earlier in your faith development you had been influenced by one of the Coe ?brothers in Washington DC (the one who tragically passed away a few years ago) ?-- and that recently, Doug Coe's international work at the Cedars and through ?the National Prayer Breakfast were beginning to interest you again. I was just ?wondering if you had had anymore contact with that group recently? I spoke ?with Tim Coe a few months back and he mentioned that he was hoping to spend ?some time with you.
From what you know of it what do you think of the work this family is doing in ?Washington DC (with politicians, etc.) and in the world? Also, in what was ?were they influential in your life and on your worldview (from the time I have ?spent with them -- you seem to be cut out of the same cloth)? I am moving out ?to DC in September to begin a nine-month internship with that group doing work ?with their student leadership development team -- so I would be interested to ?have your honest take on the good, the bad and the potentially ugly.
I will totally and graciously understand if you are never-ever able to reply to ?this e-mail. :-) But I would consider it a great gift if you are able.
A: Thanks for your note. In my college years, I was involved with Cornerstone, an affiliate of “The Fellowship.” From them I learned to focus on “loving God and loving one another” – a pretty important lesson! I also learned so much about the power of networks of friends, and connecting based on the Spirit of Christ rather than a check-list of agreement. I haven’t kept up with their work in recent years, but often meet people who are involved, and I consistently sense in them (as I did in you) the joy of Christ, a commitment to his mission in our world, and a warm spirit that I find refreshing.
Subject: Dialogue response
Hi Brian,
Your dialogue answers on your website are so vague, it is hard to ?distinguish where you stand on many issues. If you would, please respond to ?my questions below.
What are your beliefs on the following: ?1. Is homosexuality a sin? ?2. Can the Bible be trusted and literally followed as God's one true word? ?3. Should people from different faiths marry? ?4. Will a devout Muslim go to heaven?
A: Thanks for your inquiry. I’m sorry you find my answers vague. Before I would want to respond to questions like these, I would want to ask you some questions, such as … Why do you want to know? What difference does my opinion make? Are you hoping to find something in me you disagree with? Why? Was Jesus vague in regard to whether taxes should be paid to Caesar? Was Paul vague regarding whether one should eat meat sacrificed to idols? Have you read any of my books? Why would you expect me to answer these questions? If I answered them to your liking, what would the result be?
Subject: joseph campbell
Hello,
I've been involved in the Evangelical Christian Church for about 30 years. ?In the past few years, I've felt the need to step out of that mindset, out ?of the practice of working intellectually within that system, to think about ?my beliefs objectively. I'm still a Christian, just questioning a lot of ?what I've accepted as true through most of my adult life. I saw the article ?about the emerging church, along with the interview of Brian McLaren in the ?Dallas Morning News this Saturday.
The idea of a Postmodern Christian Church was new and intriguing to me. As a ?young Christian, I read a lot of Francis Schaeffer. It seems to me that much ?of his thought had to do with defending Christianity from Postmodernism , ?and showing how Postmodern thought didn't have the integrity of classical ?logic. I have a friend who is into Joseph Campbell, archetype psychology, ?etc. I guess what is called progressive Christianity. Some of what Joseph ?Campbell writes, at first seems like complete heresy to me, but then as I ?read on I find myself thinking, "well okay, maybe that's true." ?And apart from classical logic, I really don't think I have anyway to say ?it's not true. Postmodernly speaking, couldn't I think, "yes there is a way ?in which he's right and it doesn't have to negate what I believe about God?"
Anyway, these are just the thoughts that roam about in my mind these days. ?I'm wondering if there are any books you might recommend that deal with ?Joseph Campbell and myth.
A: It strikes me that what would really be best would be for you to connect with some people with whom you could discuss these kinds of questions in person. You might find some support and help through Axxess, a small but vibrant faith community in Dallas. I think you’d find them quickly through a google search. I hope that’s helpful!
Subject: Some questions/comments for Brian
Some questions/comments:
1. What do you think about the idea of "entertainment as worship" that more "traditional" Christians "fear" in the worship "style" of some of the "changing" churches? (Pardon the quotation marks.)
2. Are you fearful that fame and money and popularity will cloud what seems to be your honest (I just discovered your work today in a Methodist publication...so I'm speaking from only a couple hours' overview) desire to help Christians be more authentic lovers of Christ's Word rather than blind followers of some denomination's structures?
3. I was sorry to see that so much of the dialogue in the Larry King Show transcripts was between King and LeHaye, and King and Graham. Both you and Rev. Jakes seemed far more generous in spirit and hopeful of coming closer to Christ than the other two who seem to me to have a huge problem with my number 2 question above and are far more divisive and Evangelical.
4. What do you think about the Philip Gulley book, If Grace is True?
Thank you for giving me some hope that there may be some wise leadership arising...leadership that doesn't have "the last word," leaders that are seekers.
A: Thanks for your kind words and good questions. I respond briefly to If Grace Is True in my book The Last Word and the Word After That – like Philip Gulley, I’m hoping to reopen dialogue about hell, heaven, etc. On worship – this is a complex question. I believe that many of our churches need various kinds of worship renewal. I talk about this a bit in an article on this site (open letter to worship songwriters) and in a chapter of Adventures in Missing the Point. On fame and wealth, etc. – you’re wise to bring this up. It’s always a danger – in fact, it poses many different kinds of dangers. I often thank God that I didn’t have to deal with whatever level of notoriety I now have back when I was in my 30’s or early 40’s. Even now, sometimes the criticism is overwhelming. But I think it also serves to keep me humble and helps me not take myself too seriously. I suppose only time will tell how well or poorly I deal with whatever level of “success” I experience. I frequently ask people to pray for me in this regard!
Subject: Thank you
Dear Brian,
As others have also expressed on your site I want to add my thanks for the contribution your books have made to my life. Growing up with a Baptist heritage, and then going on to have a university education in science and medicine I somehow managed to keep my religious life and my intellectual life separate, to the detriment of both. I have read most of your books, and as a result have been encouraged to expand my thinking and read more widely. In particular the New Kind of Christian trilogy has made a tremendous impact on me. I must say though, that perhaps your books are having consequences that you may not have intended. After "The Last Word.." doubts about hell and heaven and the very nature of salvation began to grow in my mind in a way that my conservative Christian upbringing would never have permitted. Although I enjoyed reading your book it probably gave me more questions than answers, and I am still in a stage of exploring these questions. Part of that exploration, in reading further around the subject, has led me to the point where my current belief would be in a universalist type doctrine of the final complete universal reconciliation and a purgatorial type of hell from which all sinners are eventually rescued, by the grace of God. In coming around to this point of view I feel that my concept of God has been greatly expanded - he is so much more loving, more powerful and almighty, and more deserving of praise than I had ever thought. So thank you Brian for helping bring me to this point.
Of course the doors have only just been opened to a new world of reading and thinking and exploring God and his world, and working to fulfil his purposes for me within it. One immediate challenge resulting from all this is how much of this to talk about in my current church environment. I am involved with an evangelical church which I love, which has a dynamic ministry and a heart for people, but I doubt these kind of thoughts would go down to well. For now I guess I shall just keep my thoughs to myself and keep contributing to the work of God in this place. I'm happy with my new perspective, but I also don't want to rock the boat too much for people who are comfortable with their traditional theology, like Carol in your trilogy.
Thanks again for the difference you have made to my life. I look forward to reading more of your work and being further challenged and stimulated by it.
A: Thanks for your note. Yes, I think you are wise not to disturb people – this to me is what Paul urges “the mature” to do in Romans 14. We’re all in process, with a lot to learn, at a pace we can handle.
Subject: in the name of Jesus
Dear Brian,
Why is it that we do what we do “in the name of ?Jesus”? Lately, I find myself waking up during the ?night and apologizing to God for myself and for the ?people I encounter in my daily work in disaster relief ?here in Florida. I think one brief example will very ?quickly illustrate the pain. The center of the state ?is recovering from four hurricanes (it will probably ?take about 4 to seven years to recover completely ?without another hurricane). We have been blessed with ?volunteers from faith groups, churches, colleges, ?schools, businesses, etc. who use their vacations to ?help people rebuild their homes and lives. Groups are ?happy to sleep wherever we can find floor space for ?them. One group of spiritually on fire teens and their ?leaders were ‘welcomed’ at a church who subsequently ?asked them to leave during Wednesday night and Sunday ?morning worship. Lest I be too quick to condemn that ?particular church, please know that they are not ?alone. Most churches won’t allow groups to even stay ?in their buildings for fear… (let’s stop the sentence ?there). Examples like this abound and are much more ?horrific in vulnerable populations of migrant and ?undocumented persons (who are living, often with three ?families in a single wide mobile home with sheets ?separating the families). We are coming up on the ?anniversary of the first hurricane August 13, 2004. So ?much tremendous kingdom building has been done: ?government agents (FEMA) and faith based groups have ?worked hand in hand and often prayed together with ?victims while helping victims restore their lives. But ?I keep running into the brick walls of “Christians” ?that shut down, shut off and keeps “them” out (define ?them as whom ever is threatening to the current ?culture), and it is all done “in the name of Jesus”. ?A recent newspaper article quotes you as saying ?“”We’ve got to learn ways to engage with the wisdom of ?the Bible that helps us to be more ethical and more ?humane and not less.” Brian, if ever in the history of ?the United States there was a time for more compassion ?and humane and ethical justice for the poor and ?vulnerable it is now. There has never been a disaster ?of this scale in the history of the US. So, I guess it ?stands to reason that there will not have been the ?kingdom building nor the kingdom destroying of this ?scale either. I believe we could use some help down ?here from some one with your understanding and ability ?to help others broaden their horizons: this is ?worthwhile because we are kingdom building in the name ?of the radical Jesus, and not in the name of us.
A: Thanks so much – not just for your note, but for the work you’re doing on behalf of all of us to help in disaster relief. I haven’t been able to come down yet, but hope to in the coming months. A group from our church is partnering with some other churches to help a small town in Mississippi. So much good is being done by churches, but then there are these unfortunate tensions too. The former comes from sincere faith, the latter from religiosity. You and I believe that Jesus was and is about the former.
Subject: christianity+pomo= extreme confusion
Hello Brian and/or Unknown Reader of Brian McClaren's mail,
I am writing you in regards to (what else) the business of blending ?the tenants (shudder) of postmodernism with those of fundamentalist ?Christianity. My first instinct is to label myself someone who ?ascribes to many different conflicting, contradictory idealogies, much ?like you did in one of your book titles. I will however, try to resist ?that urge, as it inadvertantly places labels I am not sure I am ?entirely in agreement with.
I am writing to you for guidance really. I've one of your books in ?entirety; Adventures in Missing the Point. At the time I was very ?excited and hopeful that I was stumbling upon a new kind of Christian ?genre that would allow pluralism, relativism, and the upbringing of my ?childhood to stand in some sort of unity together. My main question ?while reading your book as an amature academic was this: Doesn't the ?"Christ as the only way" doctrine (quite the Grand Narrative, don't ?you think?) make Christianity (at least fundamentalist Christianity) ?inaccessible to, and even, dismantled by postmodern theory? This is ?not to say that aspects of living in a pomo world would not already be ?symptomatic in the Church. But rather, if these thinkers in the church ?were in any seriousness to attempt carrying pomo theory all the way ?out, they would have to cease declaring their "truth" that salvation ?is possible through any means but Christ-- and also chuck their claims ?about the Nature of God. "Modernist Christianity', as an insitution ?would be yet another deconstructed actor that had abused power on the ?world stage.
I find you're work both interesting and frustrating, for these ?reasons. I have tried in my own spiritual life to reconcile ?Christianity with my College Education, mostly to no avail. But here's ?what I've come up with.
1. God could exist within all paradigms. (This would mean the Church ?would have to toss its Jesus is the Only Way theology. It would also ?mean no more evangelism, if evangelism means beating someone else with ?Jesus until they surrender their viewpoint to some Absolute Notion of ?truth.) ie God could somehow exist outside of absolutist/relativist ?schema, in which case He/She would be absolute perhaps, but ?unknowable, unable to be defined by language
2. God could exist outside human thought and we're all ridiculous.
3. God is a narrative, a need interpret by desperate human beings who ?are constantly meaning making.
Really I could keep going on, making up stuff randomly, about my ?"perception" of God. And that's a BIG problem. It's a sick day when I ?catch myself making the statement
"I really believe I am perceiving myself to be experiencing God."
I find myself annoyed with your literature, but for different reasons ?than the fundies. See, I am looking for a Coverall application of the ?Grand Story of Postmodernism to be applied to the Grand Story of ?Christianity and I don't see that happening in your texT.
A: I have great sympathy for your frustration and struggle, as I have been there. My upcoming book “The Secret Message of Jesus” never mentions (as far as I can recall) the word “postmodern,” but I think it might be helpful to you. I also have an article on John 14:6 that should be posted here on this site soon. (It was a chapter we cut from the SMJ book.) Please don’t give up hope: I believe there is a way beyond both absolutism and relativism (also see the chapter “emergent” in A Generous Orthodoxy).
Subject: I edited my review on Amazon
Mr. McLaren,
I edited my review of "Becoming Conversant with the Emergent Church" on Amazon at your request. I am glad to hear that you are in dialogue with Carson and I certainly hope I did not misrepresent you. Our body is in discussion for reforming our vision and will be in discussion this Sunday about starting an emergent congregation in our Chicago community. It's pretty safe to say that if people think you are abandoning the gospel, I will be all the more accused of the same.
My vision starts with disassociating from "Christianity" altogether and working my way back to the "line" of orthodoxy from the outside rather than from the inside, where I must make sure I am not violating objective standards of what it means to be "the body of Christ." I feel more like I am starting a bar for the spiritually exhausted to come with their honest doubts and frustrations, seeking wherever they wish. They can then graduate to Christ and a valid Christian community if they so wish. that is a very liberal idea is it not? It can hardly be called evangelism or church. It's just authentic life lived with no pretense under no banner with an emphasis on seeking to know God and growing where you honestly feel most led.
A: Thanks so much for helping with that review. We all have to try to build bridges and “preserve the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace” – and I appreciate your help in that regard. May God bless you in your new endeavor! I hope to hear how it goes.
Subject: thank you
Hi. I'm a Christian 20 something just for the info.. wanted to thank you for your ministry..it's not in vain. I'm so excited about rediscovering who Christ is and what it means to follow Him and to worship Him in the ways that I can relate with, without sinning the sin of worshiping things rather than the creator.
Anyway, my husband and I have triplets and are attending a pca church where the pastor is currently rethinking things and is very much intrested in changing the way we do "church". it's all very exciting..
i mentioned our triplets (9 months) because it's very difficult to get out ot the house and go to a certain place. right now our church meets at a preschool..
we'd like to have church here at home, but many things need to be understood, learned..etc.. so for now that is not an option i suppose.. my mom watches 2 boys while we take one to the gathering.
anyway, i forget why i told you this! pray for us maybe that God will give us wisdom as to how to have community.
Thanks again, and I hope you and your wife have great memories and very very good intamacy w/ eachother as you experience God in the empty nesters life. :)
A: Thanks for your kind note. Triplets! God bless you and give you plenty of help and rest and laughter in the midst of the mountains of diapers!
Subject: Caricatures of your work
Brian,
First, let me state how appreciative I am of your work and ministry.
I know you have responded briefly to Carson's book and pointed to the ?responses of others. However, I have often wished that you could ?respond yourself in outlining some of the ways your work has been ?misrepresented.
At this point, I think that a response from you will do more to ?further the discussion. I realize this is hard for you, and I ?certainly understand why you might not want to defend yourself. But ?this would also benefit the whole movement.
Let me also say that you are in my prayers. May God protect and ?encourage you today.
A: Thanks so much. Actually, I wrote a rather lengthy email to Dr. Carson in private, hoping that he would be willing to rethink some of his perceptions and representations of my work and my friends’ work as well. He was kind enough to reply briefly but didn’t give any indication of having his thinking changed at all by my lengthy email. Then I prayed about it quite a bit and consulted with some wise friends, and in the end I didn’t feel that I should make any additional public response. On the one hand, if my replies were generally persuasive to others, I would make Dr. Carson look bad in public, something I have no desire to do (in respect to the Golden Rule for starters). On the other hand, if my response didn’t convince him that he had misunderstood my work, I doubt it would convince those for whom his book is convincing. So, I would rather have my reputation damaged by his book than engage in a lot of self-defense. In the long run, whatever little value there is in my books will become clear, and so will their many weaknesses. Dr. Carson will have had some role at least in the latter.
In the meantime, he and I have given two different models of communication and interaction, and perhaps the choice between those two models is more important in some ways than what people think of my work, or Dr. Carson’s.
Subject: A Crazy Request
Dear Brian,
My name is x, and I am the Pastor of Student Ministries at x. My story is similar to many you have heard: I had ?been experimenting with various styles and ideas within personal as well as ?corporate worship settings with no idea that anyone else was doing similar ?things when I discovered one of your books, and my eyes were opened to a whole "new ?kind of church" which was emerging...
I am participating in an 18 month leadership program with Arrow Leadership ?Ministries, which is based on forming primarily character and vision, which also ?giving shape to the ministry which God is leading me into. Through this ?program, I am considering specific mentors who can walk with me through the ?formational process. This area of leading the church which is emerging is one where ?I distinctly feel God's calling and leadership, but I am certainly in need of ?mentoring and guidance to do this.
I realize that it's completely unlikely that you would be available to fill a ?role such as this, especially without a previous connection with me. I feel ?as though your articles and books have begun a mentoring process in my life ?already. However, due to our proximity (around 2 hours), I was wondering if ?there would be any possibility of you taking an hour or so a few times in the ?next year to speak into my life in these areas. I would certainly do whatever it ?would take to mold my schedule to yours and to be completely available at ?times and locations which would work for you.
I realize that this is a request which is unlikely at best. However, as I ?pray through it, I continue to return back to this possibility, and so I felt ?that I could at least send an email. I have purposely tried to be brief; if you ?are interested in receiving more information on this, please feel free to ?contact me at any of the below information.
I continue to be taught and led by your writings, and am challenged moment by ?moment in my thoughts and beliefs by them. They have spurred many ?significant discussions, and with me as with many, these discussions have given me an ?even greater passion for Jesus. Thank you for being a bold follower of Him.
Again, thank you for considering this request, despite how crazy it seems to ?me. I pray God's blessing on your continued ministry.
A: I am a big fan of the Arrow program, and I am honored that you’d ask me. I wish I could say yes, but I’ve promised my wife (and myself) that I won’t take on any more commitments for the next year or so. But please know that I don’t consider your request crazy at all, and that I am honored by it, and I only wish I could say yes.
Subject: what is the gospel?
Dear sir,
I am a Christian living in Indiana and attending a United Methodist church. I recently found out that you will be speaking at a Conference here in the next few months, and so have been reading your work and trying to find out just what is meant by the emerging church movement.
In one of the articles posted on your website, "the emergent mystique" , Pastor Rob Bell says the question is "What is the gospel?"
I would be interested to hear your answer to this question.
My answer is that the gospel is, I have been crucified with Christ. It is no longer I who live but Christ and the life I now live, I live by faith in the Son of God who loved me and gave Himself for me.
I am sure that you must have heard these words said many times before but I would like to hear what these words, if anything, mean to you . I am not a theologian, I do not even understand most of the terms that are debated on your website but I know the truth of those words above.
A: I appreciate your summary of the gospel. I think it reflects what is at the heart of the Christian life. The question of how we define this gospel is a truly important one, and I continue to grapple with it; my next book will be my most focused attempt to explain the gospel as I see it so far.
Subject: Great Book! one question.
Dear Pastor Brian D. Mclaren.
I really enjoy reading your books, and you have helped me on my walk with ?God, for that I am grateful.
On your last book " The Last Word and the Word After That", great book! But ?I left feeling that I had some unanswered questions, or just one.
I think its great to focus on the Kingdom of God, and not on if I'm gonna be ?going to Heaven or hell. And it was a suprise to me to find out that the ?idea of hell for the most part is borrowed from othere relgions... Sorry ?this letter is taking so long to get to my point.
But that brings me to my question.
If hell is a borrowed idea, a concept conceived and molded from the fabrics ?of othere religions, and the Pharisees used it as a way to persuade sinners ?to follow God's ways. It would lead me to believe that there is no hell. Its ?just a 'scare method' to become more Godly.
But if that's true that would mean that the Devil doesn't exist along with ?Falling Angels. However the Bible would indicate that Jesus cast them out of ?people. What is your opinion on Falling angels and the enemy. Are you saying ?that they dont exist?
If you have read this thank you so much, you have great wisdom. Im sure I ?have probably misrepresented you on a couple points, for that im sorry. Like ?Dan I am just trying to understand the quest that I on, the path of Faith.
My name is x, I am 23 and gave my life to the Lord 2 years ago.
A: Thanks for your great question! I’m not saying that the devil and fallen angels don’t exist. We use the best words and metaphors we can to describe as best we can very real things that are in some ways indescribable. When Jesus cast out demons, I have no doubt he was doing something very real, but I don’t feel I can tell you exactly what was happening. I think good Christians will have a variety of ways of understanding or imagining what demons are, where they come from, etc. What we need to know is that Jesus wants to liberate people from all forces or powers or realities that paralyze, blind, control, or otherwise damage them.
Subject: Saw a report on him in "Religion and Ethics"
Hello,
I hope that you could let him know how much he impacted me. Last Sunday I was watching “Religion and Ethics” and I was very impressed by Mr. McLaren’s ministry.
It brings a loot of hope to Christianity at large, to have a refreshing figure like him, that can live and preach the Gospel outside the walls of mainstream churches. His ministry is not only an example, but a true inspiration.
Is there any similar congregation in (or around) New York City?
A: Thanks! There are some exciting new kinds of congregations springing up around New York City. I think you can find them through emergentvillage.com.
Subject: a word of appreciation
Dear Brian,
I am right at half-way through “A Generous Orthodoxy” (I have really been going slow with this one and savor every minute of it.). So far you have so well articulated many, many, many of my own thoughts, concerns, criticism and joys as a disciple of Jesus.
I am a 50 year old, somewhat reluctant minister, raised in Churches of Christ (Stone-Campbell), but presently serving two independent rural Pennsylvanian churches that were formerly United Church of Christ congregations. At the same time I have an acting career/passion that tugs at me for constant attention. When you describe your spiritual development, the Jesuses you have known, frustrations with evangelicalism, appreciation of other expressions of Christianity, a nod to restoration movements, liberal/conservative issues, etc. etc. I feel like I am reading my own brain… only it finally got smarter.
Thanks so much for this work. I have read some of your other writings and listened to lectures, but this work is the cream of the crop… so far. I hope God blesses me with the opportunity to meet you some day.
I would love to correspond but I know you are in high demand these day, so I will simply say peach be with you my brother.
A: Thanks for your kind words. I think you had a typo above, but “peach be with you” is a kind of nice thought too! It evokes a joyful summer fruitfulness. Keep up the good work.
Subject: open dialogue
I know by the look of where this email is going that you Brian will probably never see it. So it is with most things with the church today, call and leave a message on a church phone, emails gets screened by others...
I have only heard about you recently and listened to several of your presentations including the spot on PBS. I am wondering why you don't get into the conversation more? Here is the thing, though you are pushing the emergent environment your online presence is very antiquated. You have a blog so open it up, blog on it several times a week and accept open comments. Most everyone I know in the conversation has a blog and is open to conversation. Really. I know your busy, we are also. I myself would find it very helpful. You are being hailed as the "leader" of the emerging church. I am part of the emerging church, and have been years and years ago before it was cool because my generational make up sought it. If your the leader then don't you want open and honest dialogue with others of the movement?
A: I am sorry you take such a critical tone in your question. You say you are part of the emerging church, but frankly, your ungracious tone doesn’t match what I hope the emerging church will be. To answer your question, I am a human being. In spite of technology, I have to sleep, eat, be a good (or at least decent!) husband and father, along with my ministry responsibilities (which for 24 years have included being a pastor). I can’t be available to everyone who might wish me to. Only God can do that – and I’m sure God hears complaints at times! So, I can be a friend to a few, a neighbor to a few more, an acquaintance to a few more … but as a creature, I have limitations that require me to sometimes say, “I’m sorry, I wish I could, but I simply can’t.”
I should add that in my opinion one characteristic of many open blogs is that people with harsh and unhelpful attitudes tend to intrude and dominate and sour most dialogues. If my blog contained some of the kind of rhetoric I often see elsewhere, I would feel ashamed to be associated with it. So, that may seem to you to be a lack of openness and honesty – but I’m telling you openly and honestly how I feel.
I try to be available to people at the events where I speak, as people will tell you who have come to those events. And as you’ll see from the number of postings and responses here on this site, keeping up with these replies has been a huge task. I hope you will be understanding rather than critical of my decisions.
Subject: Thank You!
Brian,
Thank you for writing "A New Kind of Christian." I am a pastor of a midwestern non-denominational church. This is my 27th of pastoring and feel like I am not making the impact on my community like I want to. Your book gave me great hope for the church and for the Kingdom of God to be released in my community.
A: Thanks, brother. May God bless you. I’m just finishing my 24th year, and I have huge respect for anyone who has faithfully served as long as you have!
Subject: Jesus and the Church
Pastor McLaren., my name is x, and I am writing to you from x, Oregon.
I would like to offer a couple of caveats. First, I have not yet read your books, but I have read a lot of material on the emergent church on the web. Second, I was a fundamentalist Christian for about ten years, but have not called myself a Christian for the last twenty-five years. During the last quarter century I have, however, tried to educate myself on issues related to the historical Jesus and the church, and I have been in conversation with a number of Christians, in particular fundamentalists and Eastern Orthodox.
It is my observation that for many American Christians the Jesus of the gospels is gone. He is missing in action. By that I mean that in particular the teachings of the Jesus of the gospels on peace, materialism, poverty, and compassion have largely disappeared from the worldviews of many Christians. It is as if those teachings simply do not exist. You could remove large portions of the gospels and that would have no effect, theological or otherwise, on many modern Christians. You can have an extensive conversation with many conservative Christians on such issues, and they will never reference anything in the gospels. In place of the gospels various right-wing articles of faith have been substituted – America as God’s instrument in the world, violence as a legitimate and useful tool of policy, indifference to the poor, and so on.
So it seems to me that you are trying to do something very simple: recover the Jesus of the gospels. This is certainly a worthy goal. But it is a goal that, in my opinion, is fraught with difficulties. I would like to mention two of those difficulties.
First, from the point of view of the historian it is difficult to know much about the historical Jesus with any degree of certainty. This has to do with the nature of the gospels, which were not written by historians and were never intended to be “historical documents” in the way that we think of historical documents. They are basically theological documents; I think it is accurate to say that the Jesus of the gospels is a product of the church, and that he reflects to a large degree the self-understanding of the church. The Jesus of the gospels is thus more of a literary than an historical figure. (Being a literary figure is not a bad thing; as certain Jewish authors have pointed out, when we humans want to discuss critical issues central to life, we tell stories.)
In other words, the primary “fact,” if you will, of Christianity is not Jesus, not the gospels, not the New Testament, but the church. The church existed before the gospels, and it took several hundred years for the canon of the New Testament to be finalized by the church (with disagreements over the canon continuing for more than a thousand years.) Moving the timeline of the canon into a more modern period, had Jesus been born in the time of Shakespeare, the canon would be largely finalized some time in the next few decades. The received Jesus who is worshipped by modern Christians is *that* Jesus only because of decisions made by Christians in the first four hundred years of church history. Had other decisions been made, the received view of Jesus would have been very different. Thus it seems to me that the Jesus of the gospels only makes sense in the context of church tradition; the Jesus of the gospels is organically and ontologically connected to that tradition. But that very tradition includes developments that tend to obscure the Jesus of the gospels.
And so we end up with a dilemma: in order to recover the Jesus of the gospels one must go outside of the church tradition. Yet the Jesus of the gospels only makes sense within the context of that tradition.
This is similar to discussions that I have had with fundamentalist Christians. Many Christians accept only the Bible and reject church tradition as being “the tradition of men.” I point out to them that the Christian Bible is a product of that very tradition which they reject. Other Christians seek to go back to the “basics” of the faith, before the development of church tradition. To them I point out that if you want to live as Christians lived in the very early church you’re going to have to get rid of the New Testament, because there was no such thing at that time. You’re not going to even have a Bible, because they were expensive and rare. And the only time you’re going to hear the Bible is when it is read at church services. And you may end up worshipping with a group that uses books that are not even included in the modern canon.
Thus from both logical and historical points of view, I don’t understand how the New Testament, or particular doctrines, or the Jesus of the gospels can be extracted from or considered in isolation from the other traditions of the church. For example, how can one accept the doctrines of the Trinity or the Incarnation while rejecting traditions related to the eucharist, or church hierarchy, since they are all part of the same tradition, and part of the same developmental process that was accomplished by the same people? By what criterion is that judgment made? I suppose this is the same reasoning that has led a number of evangelicals into the Catholic and Eastern Orthodox traditions.
My own personal dilemma is this: in order to be a Christian it seems to me that at a minimum one has to take at least most of the sayings and deeds of Jesus as being historical, even as they are presented in documents that are themselves not historical. In other words, you have to take as history things that cannot be affirmed through historical reasoning. This is a leap that I have been unable to make. I suppose I could say that the Jesus of the gospels is a useful fiction (meant in a good way), but them I’m in the position of doing the very thing that for which I criticize others: cherry picking the larger tradition based on my own personal inclinations.
Well, enough of my ramblings. Thanks for your time, and if you have time and inclination to address any of these issues on your web site, I’ll appreciate any response.
A: Thanks. You write very clearly and you articulate a dilemma that many of thoughtful people face today, and you do so with more clarity than I’ve seen it articulated elsewhere.
If you do decide to read one of my books, may I suggest “The Secret Message of Jesus?” It’s where I try to deal with the canonical gospel material. I don’t deal with the “Jesus Seminar” questions of historicity: I work on an assumption (or perhaps hypothesis is a better word) that there is a unity of message there that does reflect to a substantial degree the teachings of the Jesus who existed, not just the ones created by various churches. (By the way, I have a chapter on “the seven Jesuses I have known” in my book A Generous Orthodoxy which you might find helpful.) As I worked on the book, I felt again and again that there really was a coherence in the teachings contained in the gospels – but that this coherence in many ways is a witness against the church. Strangely, that realization increases my confidence that the church maintained the text with some degree of fidelity – since it was maintaining things that it neither seemed to obey nor in some cases understand.
This doesn’t prove anything, but perhaps the book will still prove helpful in your own spiritual search.
If I were to recommend a major scholarly work on these matters, it would be N. T. Wright’s trilogy (beginning with Jesus and the Victory of God). They’re long, dense, and tremendously helpful.
Subject: Wholesale info
Hi-
I have really enjoyed "A New kind Of Christian" . I run a retail ?gift/book store in x and would be interested in carrying this ?book. Do you know who I should contact to obtain wholesale info?
A: I’m so glad you enjoyed it. I guess you should contact the publisher … they’ll probably connect you with a distributor.
Subject: ?Questions about an article
?Brian McLaren
?I see much to agree with in your open letter to songwriters, and am ?searching for just such songs as you describe. However, can you give any ?examples in any of the categories, even if they are unlikely, out of print, ?hard to find, from the old hymn traditions or from other countries?
My initial thought on your first category was the wonderful song "Days of ?Elijah" which I think I love so much because it is a celebration of the ?coming celebration. However, I quickly discovered that I couldn't easily ?come up with an example in your other categories.
I'm not a song writer, but a worship leader with a pretty talented group. ?I'm going to share the idea with them and see what they come up with. We'll ?keep you posted!
A: Please do let me know what you come up with! I know that at least in one category – justice – it is almost impossible to find anything. Negro spirituals – most of which have a kind of “secret meaning” – are exceptions, but most people don’t realize that, for example, “Swing Low, Sweet Chariot” was talking about the underground railroad, and that many songs about heaven are really (or also) songs about freedom and justice in reference to slavery.
Subject: Sharing Jesus
When I first read Mclaren's series at Wheaton College I was relieved. I was ?> even more relieved when I read Generous Orthodoxy. Finally someone ?> coherently articulated my understanding of Christ, the Kingdom, and the ?> stories in the Bible. I didn't feel so alone anymore. I have since moved ?> into the inner city of Detroit where I work for a Christian development ?> organization. I teach computer classes. we start out with a time to talk, ?> pray, read the Bible. My students have a very limited if nonexistent ?> understanding of the bible, christianity, and the gospel. In explaining ?> anything I have to simplify everything so much. What I read in generous ?> orthodoxy is really not very helpful for communicating what I believe to the ?> student. I find my self giving reduced answers that are the standard answers ?> of salvation and the gospel. I am not satisfied with this. I need guidence ?> in how to share my faith, Christ, and the gospel with students who have can ?> barely read let alone undestand theology. The New Kind of Christian series ?> is too intellectual for this students. Do you have any suggestions on ?> something I can read or steps I can take to guide my students? I want to ?> have meaningful discussions not just surface level. Thank you. ?
A: There is a real need in this area, and I agree – my books aren’t terribly helpful because they’re pitched at a college-level readership. Maybe you’ll develop something! In fact, maybe your posting will inspire some other writers too.
Subject:
I don't have a question. Just wanted to thank Brian for his courage and insight expressed in the article about our President and the Iraq war. I am also an evangelical christian, a vietnam era veteran and one who is increasingly troubled by the issues he raises in the article. I find myself in perfect agreement with him. God bless you.
A: Thanks so much.
Subject:
Hi! I don't really want this question posted but I am very interested to know if there has been any further plans made regarding a possible conference Brian referred to. In one response in this section he spoke of a conference that a friend of his did in some other country for the "older" folks who share the same heart toward the emergent church issues as the younger generation. He spoke of there being many in their 50's whom God has placed in a unique place of encouraging young leaders in the church, watching their backs etc. My wife and I have found ourselves in that place and we definitely want to meet others in some sort of learning and sharing setting. How will I find out if such a conference happens? Please let us know what's going on.
A: If it happens, we’ll make sure it’s posted at emergentvillage.com. I hope it happens!